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by Mike Gray
Recently in a comment on this weblog the Bible came under criticism from one of our readers named Ray:
Of course atheists know more about religion than believers. That’s why they’re atheists. I was raised in an ultra-religious family, and when I felt my faith starting to waver, I vowed to read the bible from cover to cover to strengthen it. I did – and never believed again, or missed my beliefs. Most believers simply have no idea of the barbarity and savagery which fills the book on which their religion is based. It was written by ignorant savages and if ever there was a candidate for book burning, the bible is it.
Here are some quotes from more eloquent people than me:
“Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.” – Isaac Asimov
“Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.”
– Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason
It’s interesting that the following not unintelligent people, several of whom were contemporaries of Thomas Paine, also read the same book and were notably less than horrified:
There never was found, in any age of the world, either religion or law that did so highly exalt the public good as the Bible.
- Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopherI have always said, I always will say, that the studious perusal of the sacred volume will make better citizens, better fathers, and better husbands.
- Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), 3rd President of the United StatesThe general diffusion of the Bible is the most effectual way to civilize and humanize mankind; to purify and exalt the general system of public morals; to give efficacy to the just precepts of international and municipal law; to enforce the observance of prudence, temperance, justice and fortitude; and to improve all the relations of social and domestic life.
- James Kent (1763-1847), American legal scholarThe Bible is the only source of all Christian truth; the only rule for the Christian life; the only book that unfolds to us the realities of eternity. There is no book like the Bible for excellent wisdom and use.
- Sir Matthew Hale (1609-1676), Lord Chief Justice of EnglandSo great is my veneration for the Bible, that the earlier my children begin to read it the more confident will be my hopes that they will prove useful citizens to their country and respectable members of society.
- John Quincy Adams (1767-1848), 6th President of the United StatesNever yet did there exist a full faith in the divine word which did not expand the intellect, while it purified the heart; which did not multiply and exalt the aims and objects of the understanding, while it fixed and simplified those of the desires and feelings.
- Samuel Taylor Coleridge (1772-1834), English poet and philosopherWe account the Scriptures of God to be the most sublime philosophy. I find more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible than in any profane history whatever.
- Isaac Newton (1643-1727), English physicist, mathematician, astronomerThere are no songs comparable to the songs of Zion; no orations equal to those of the prophets; and no politics like those which the Scriptures teach.
- John Milton (1608-1674), English poetPhilosophical argument, especially that drawn from the vastness of the universe, in comparison with the apparent insignificance of this globe, has sometimes shaken my reason for the faith that is in me; but my heart has always assured and reassured me that the gospel of Jesus Christ must be a divine reality.
- Daniel Webster (1782-1852), 14th United States Secretary of StateHold fast to the Bible as the sheet-anchor of your liberties; write its precepts in your hearts, and practice them in your lives. To the influence of this book we are indebted for all the progress made in true civilization, and to this we must look as our guide in the future.
- Ulysses S. Grant (1822-1885), 18th President of the United States
Thomas Paine’s detestation of cruelty is commendable, and he was right about one thing: “It [the Bible] is a history of wickedness.” However, all the wickedness originated in men, and all the cruelty that Paine might want to blame on God was self-inflicted—free will, don’t you know. Paine didn’t seem to understand—or, understanding it, rejected—the bedrock Biblical doctrine of original sin. His conception of the Almighty as depicted in the Bible was severely limited. A theologian recently explained just what the book is all about:
The Bible is a book about people who have a problem with God. They have a hard time seeing eye to eye with a God who says, “‘My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,’ says the LORD. ‘For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts’.” (Isaiah 55:8-9)
The Bible is also about a God who has a problem with people. The whole Bible is about a God who will not always protect those who refuse to trust Him. When God barred Adam and Eve from their garden home, when He sent a flood to destroy all but Noah and his family, when he allowed the Assyrians to defeat the Northern Tribes, and the Babylonians to defeat Judah, God made it clear that there is a limit to His patience.
God’s promises are not given to all, but to everyone who is willing to seek and trust Him. Isaiah reminds us that God is willing to be found by those who are willing to seek Him on His terms. The whole Bible makes it clear that God promises to be found only by those who are willing to surrender to Him.
God cannot be found by just anyone. Because He is Spirit, He is seen only by those to whom He chooses to reveal Himself. This is also true of the Bible. While the Scriptures have been given to lead us to God, they remain a closed book to those who are trying to find God on their own terms. God will be found in the pages of His book by those who desire to obey Him, or He will not be found at all.
Thomas Paine wanted to have God on his own terms—heaven but no hell, universal salvation without judgment, no need for obedience—but when he couldn’t have it his way he turned to atheism.
As for Asimov, if you, like him, completely ignore the plain meanings of words and the clearly expressed intentions of an author, you can come to believe—or disbelieve—anything at all about what you read.
“Thomas Paine wanted to have God on his own terms—heaven but no hell, universal salvation without judgment, no need for obedience—but when he couldn’t have it his way he turned to atheism.”
No baby killing. No having rape victims murdered.
“but when he couldn’t have it his way he turned to atheism.”
Wasn’t an atheist. Moron
“s for Asimov, if you, like him, completely ignore the plain meanings of words”
Apologetics is all about ignoring the plain meanings of words.
Especially since the bible portrays god as a mass murderer.
Good job quoting jefferson, only he rejected large parts of the bible, and his edited version removed all references of the supernatural. In his Jeffersonian Bible, Jesus was NOT the son of God.
Perhaps the atheists are more knowledgeable than you give then credit for.
I have read the bible as well and though it did not immediately make me an atheist, I turn to it to solidify my non-belief.
I’ve studied the doctrines of most churches, having attended them in a search for the truth, and I find the following issues gnaw at me:
1. If we are to struggle to be more like God in our actions, is that why there is so much egotism, selfishness and punishment directed at those who don’t follow our wishes?
2. Why do witnesses of biblical times who saw the messiah of each religion get a pass on faith? They witnessed first-hand, yet future generations are punished for not trusting without evidence.
3. Why would a merciful divine being punish innocent children for the acts or negligences of their parents regarding baptisms and other religious ceremonies not being followed?
4. Why would a loving god punish morally sound people for believing what they were raised to believe?
5. Who is going to be punished? The Muslim-born who doesn’t convert to Christianity or the Christian-born who doesn’t convert to Islam?
6. We put people in jail for abusing their animals and cruelly punishing them. Why should we revere an entity that extends this punishment for disobedience to eternity?
The author’s glowing list of luminaries expousing the Christian bible is meaningless as were the quotes from the poster. Would it help if I provided quotes from luminaries in Germany in the 1940s about their views on Nazi doctrines? That’s the problem with religious view; nobody reads religious texts without preconceived biases.
The bits on limits to god’s patience make me laugh. Ever read the story of Job? Severe physical and emotional abuse of a believer over a long period, simply to prove a point, or worse, win a wager.
The problem with the Bible is everyone’s an expert on what it says but very few actually read it, most that do, reread the same verses, ignoring the rest. The majority out there only hear the words in the context of the sermon being taught or the doctrine being pushed. When a “believer” takes the time to really read the book, and it takes more than one time through to get it, then that “believers faith will be shaken. Shaken? yep they will find out that Sunday is not the Sabbath, and is in fact Baals day, Jesus’s exact birthday is not mentioned, but what is, isn’t in December, Easter was celebrated by “enemies” of Christians, and statues are graven images hated by God….even if they are a statue of Mary or Jesus. They will find out Jesus said “the Hebrew scriptures, they testify of me”, meaning the old testament hasn’t been done away with, and Paul was a Pharisee, a Roman, and “self” appointed apostle. Their faith will be shaken when they learn God is looking for faithfulness not faith, and admittance to God’s city and the tree of life are for those in Christ who “keep His Commandments”
Kevin said “The bits on limits to god’s patience make me laugh. Ever read the story of Job? Severe physical and emotional abuse of a believer over a long period, simply to prove a point, or worse, win a wager.”
Kevin, Have You really read Job? God only allowed Satan to do to Job, what Satan would do to all of us if God would let him.
God knew Job could pass Satan’s test, and God rewarded Job, with more than any of us have today.
Chris m — “Especially since the bible portrays god as a mass murderer.” A libelous statement. God “murders” no one. Scripture makes it plain that anybody who got it, deserved it. The Bible puts forward an uncomfortable fact: Every human being is created by God. That person belongs to Him. And He, as the only truly sovereign being who ever existed, can do with that life what He wills once that person has confronted Him and either accepted or rejected His will. And if, for that reason, a person dies at His hand, it’s not “murder” at all. It’s judgment according to His sovereign will. God is long-suffering, but His patience is not infinite.
Brian — As far as I know, nobody else has had the guts to say it, so I will: Jefferson is in hell at this moment awaiting his final judgment. Sad, since he was such a brilliant individual.
“Perhaps the atheists are more knowledgeable than you give then credit for.” I never said atheists are ignoramuses — many have been quite intelligent, such as Thomas Jefferson and Isaac Asimov. But it’s faith and not brains that, as I heard one preacher say, will help us “escape hell and gain heaven.” By definition, God possesses an IQ raised to infinity, whereas TJ and IA had at most 200 IQs — minute in comparison.
Kevin — These questions are better addressed to a preacher, priest, or rabbi than to me. I would direct you to one of those experts (assuming they know what they’re talking about).
However, permit me comments on some of them:
(1) A Christian follows Christ, not other people’s “wishes,” and God’s will, not His “wishes.” Jesus told His disciples the “world” (the pagan cultures) would hate them, just as they had hated Him first.
(2) “Why do witnesses of biblical times who saw the messiah of each religion get a pass on faith?” Sorry, but I have no idea what “the messiah of each religion” is.
(3) I don’t know about other “religions,” but Christianity is all about a conversion of the heart, or faith. The popular notion that God is all love and no judgment is completely unbiblical. As for punishing “innocent children,” atheists use that dodge all the time (heck, Dick Durban has used it to promote ObamaCare). God makes special provision for the innocent, but sin afflicts us all, and no one gets out of this life alive.
(4) “morally sound people”: According to the Bible, there ain’t no such thing. Being “nice” and “moral” without Christ might get you free tickets to a ballgame but it won’t get you anywhere close to heaven.
(5) Any PERSON, Muslim or not, who does not receive Christ after hearing the good news is going to spend eternity in a very unpleasant place with no hope of time off for good behavior.
(6) I don’t see how animal abuse comes into this. Maybe too many Hollywood films about the afterlife prompted it. (Hollywood NEVER gets it right when it comes to the afterlife — not even so-called “Christian” films.) So God is going to pick up a stick and whack on unbelievers for the rest of eternity, is that it? (He’s got better things to do, actually.) Yet another atheist caricature of God’s nature. The Bible says God invented hell originally for Satan and his followers who rebelled against His authority before the earth was created. People who hate Him (and they hate Him, like Satan, by rejecting His authority) are also destined to go there. God would rather you or I not suffer that fate, but like I said above, His patience has a limit.
Perhaps this is what seminarians are taught nowadays: “All you need is love.” God’s love, yes. God is love, yes. But God also judges, and nobody wants to hear that.
“Nazi doctrines”: Hitler and his thugs were not Christians. Like many deceptive politicians, they used the trappings of Christianity to fool a largely Christian nation into accepting their policies. The Nazis were pantheistic pagans through and through.
As for Job, Theophile says it pretty well in Comment #5.
— Mike Gray
@Mike Gray
A perfect example of dogma. None of your responses actually provided any evidence but rather condemnation. Give me some evidence that your holy book is actually holy, your god exists, and your beliefs are right. In fact, I’ll invoke 1 Peter 3:15 on this one. Lay it on me.
jp — I condemned no one. That’s God’s job.
I take it you have a Bible at your disposal. Read it, believe it, and you’ll have your answer. Don’t read it, don’t believe it, and you’ll never have the answer.
— Mike Gray
I take it you have a Qu’ran at your disposal. Read it, believe it, and you’ll have your answer. Don’t read it, don’t believe it and you’ll never have the answer.
Oh and don’t forget about the Upanishads and the Tao Te Ching, et cetera. Inane.
I think we should just forget about paying so much attention to these old bibles. They do not deserve the credibility we lend them when we challenge them, and the more “slam dunk” your argument the less impact it has. I think we should write a couple of atheist bibles for ourselves; maybe like the two that have just been released. One is by AC Grayling called The Good Book and the other is called 21st Century Testament and it doesn’t have an author.
To me, the bible is fantastic literature. Read correctly, it provides brilliant insights into love and evil. Unfortunately–tragically even–most people read it with a childish mind and end up with a cartoonish understanding of God. Worse, some people project evil ideas into it and use it as a wedge. @ Mike Gray–From your writing I can see, clear as a ringing bell, that you are an intellectual and moral fraud. A phony. You should do more reading and thinking and much less bloviating.
Faithful — Please forgive my shortcomings. Like Philip Marlowe said, “I grieve over them on long winter evenings.”
— Mike Gray
Wow, thanks for the thoughtful responses from the believers out there. I’ve actually forwarded them on to some fellow non-believers. I was impressed at the vast amount of text required to not answer any of my questions directly. Considering a political career?
@Theophile: Yes, I have read Job. So it makes it ok that god had someone else do it? This is the most absurd rebuttal I have ever faced online. Replace the players in this story with a tyrannical leader of a nation as god, a faithful prime minister as Job, and a professional torturer as Satan. “Go ahead, try it, torturer, he won’t talk.” Do you see the people of the nation saying ‘wow, that was wise of the leader and bad of the torturer.’ God allowed Satan to destroy Job, kill his family and ruin him, to prove a point. The only question to answer is, is that ok with you? And BTW, I’m sure I’d say ‘thanks, big guy’ when god replaced my family he allowed to be killed with a new one.
@Mike Gray: I disagree with a previous poster. Your responses to my questions are done with enough style to make it obvious that you are not an idiot, just treading lightly on the issues. You actually answered most of them with the exact reasons why I left Christianity, kudos.
You’ve mentioned, as did Theophile that god isn’t punishing people “he has other things to do”. Nice. Isn’t he responsible for the punishment? Why do you step around that? I think this is far from a caricature of god’s nature.
My fall from Christianity took a long time and the more I studied the less I believed. The final straw was when I put the whole ‘caricature’ together as painted by most major religions. From there, I looked at omnipotence and omniscience. I decided that the being possessing them would be perfect. It was easier to take the last step to realize that jealousy (of other gods), tyranny (worship me or suffer) and intolerance (of other beliefs) were not descriptors of a perfect being. Later, as my beliefs matured, I went a step more down the road (to the Hell I don’t believe in, I know) to say this: Today, if you could show me incontrovertable proof of the existance of god (personal audience in my living room would work), I still wouldn’t worship him unless he was an entirely different god than that of the Christian bible.
A god should be beyond schoolyard bullying. Respect and admiration should be earned, not won with fear.
Kevin — Thanks, I think, for acknowledging I’m not an idiot. I USED to be an idiot (an atheist); my spiritual progression through life seems to have been exactly opposite to yours.
Life isn’t merely a struggle; it’s a war. A war for truth and justice, lives and souls. There are many casualties in this war — first and foremost among them being all atheists who, without realizing it, have already surrendered to their fiercest opponent, Satan. (Satan, the sworn enemy of the human race, is the wild card; an unregenerate life denying God would be bad enough, but Satan complicates things enormously. As the father of all lies and liars, Satan can only confuse and scatter. But, for his purposes, atheism will suffice in accomplishing his final goal, the destruction of mankind — or, at least, a sizable portion of it.)
These exchanges have been enlightening, but I don’t think anyone’s mind has been changed. Therefore, I’m signing off. If anybody else wants to weigh in, feel free to submit comments. Just stay on topic and keep it clean.
P.S. — Here’s an article I just read. It probably won’t change anyone’s mind, either, but it is by a person who did change his:
http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Perfect-Justice-of-Hell-David-French-03-21-2011?print=1 (or: http://tinyurl.com/62pnyds)
— Mike Gray